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Transform Windows Home Server Vail Into a Media Center, Part 3

By on May 24, 2010 in Software, TV, Video, WHS v2, windows 7, Windows Home Server, Windows Media Center

Preface

This is a multipart series on Vail and multimedia. This series was inspired by Windows Media Center not featuring in the next version of Windows Home Server (Vail).

My original goal was to get Windows Media Center working on a Vail machine. Not directly inside the Vail OS, but in a Windows 7 OS inside a Virtual Machine on Vail. Say that 10 times! For most aspects of this concept, the ability to store and serve media from one machine should be fairly straightforward at that point. With one exception: record TV directly on the Vail machine. When I say “Vail machine”, I refer to the computer that Vail and the Windows 7 VM are on. 1 machine, 2 operating systems.

I am trying to do this as inexpensively as possible using readily available (free or inexpensive) software and a commonly used USB TV tuner.

To date, I have been unsuccessful on that last (and most important) requirement. In Part 1, I used VMware server to create a virtual machine. It did not work. In Part 2, I used VMware workstation to create a virtual machine. It did not work.

In both Part 1 and Part 2, I was focused on obtaining that ability using the above goal. While unsuccessful, it is time to sit back (briefly) and take a general look at the VM concept. Which leads me to the one question that I have not answered to date: What does work? Using my original VM from Part 1, I am able to view pictures

3mc17 thumb Transform Windows Home Server Vail Into a Media Center, Part 3

and play music from this virtual machine. With data stored on the Vail shares.

3mc18 thumb Transform Windows Home Server Vail Into a Media Center, Part 3

I can see what TV shows are stored on the Vail shares, however, they will not play.

3mc19 thumb Transform Windows Home Server Vail Into a Media Center, Part 3

Media Center tells me there are no movies,

3mc20 thumb Transform Windows Home Server Vail Into a Media Center, Part 3

even though I have the Vail videos folder (and a few movies) in Media Center.

3mc21 thumb Transform Windows Home Server Vail Into a Media Center, Part 3

I have not delved deeply into the those last 2 issues to date. Whether it is a sharing problem, a driver problem, or it just being a Vail beta problem, I am sure that those glitches can be overcome.

Once I get past the BIG one, which is the ability to record TV directly on a Vail machine.

So, the concept of using a virtual machine to have the Media Center feature inside Vail appears to be valid, with some hopefully “minor” problems to overcome. Getting the ability to record TV on the Vail machine is still the problem child.

Before I do move onto other options, I do wish to pursue one more Virtual Machine (with USB pass-through capabilities).

Please note the following restrictions I have imposed on this quest!

  • No bare-metal Virtual Machine managers. I am trying to make this as easy, painless, and as inexpensive as possible. As in:
    – Install Vail
    – Install a VM program
    – Install Windows 7/Media Center
  • When working with Virtual Machines, the host will be Vail. Using Windows 7 as the host is just not an option (to me). While there are a lot of technical reasons, i.e. Drive Extender, the easiest way to put it is one installs a software feature (Windows 7 MC) on top of the OS, not an OS on top of the software feature.

These restrictions may seem arbitrary to some. Regarding the first point, if you are a VM guru and want to do all this inside a bare-metal VM, go for it. I am not a VM guru, and have no plans to be a VM guru. Remember, this is supposed to be a *Home* Server.

Regarding the second point, please reread:

the easiest way to put it is one installs a software feature (Windows 7 MC) on top of the OS, not an OS on top of the software feature.

Keyword: feature. I have no desire to increase the complexity or compromise the usability of my server. I am not going to compromise the data on my WHS. WMC is a feature I desire inside Vail, not the other way around. If you feel differently, go for it! For me, it is not an option, and please do not suggest it as one. If, however, you wish to spend your time and effort doing so, go for it.

It has been pointed out that one can add physical drives to the VM. Fine. Perhaps eSATA drives. I have serious doubts about USB drives. Just another reason to forgo this route. Of course, once again, you are free to do it this way if you so desire.

Basically, in the end, if i suggest this method and you lose data, it will be my fault. If you do it yourself, you have no one to blame but yourself if you lose data.

OK, enough of all that and on to Part 3, which is to try one more Virtual Machine variation and a USB TV tuner. If this does not work, I promise to abandon this path and begin looking at alternatives to getting that all important feature: recorded TV working inside Vail.

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About Jim Clark

Hello. I’m from the heartland of the U.S. Lots of corn and beans, although Iowa is a lot more than just farmland. It also has a few computer enthusiasts (no, not me!). I’ve been around PCs since I got my 1st PC XT aloooong time ago. WGS is one of the first sites I found centered around WHS. And the best. Every once in awhile, I do get away from the KB and enjoy time with and my wife and our 4 kids. And I do have a day job.
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  • jkasal

    Hi Jim,

    Thanks for all the great articles you have written, I have been enjoying them for awhile now!

    I would recommend using Windows 7 as you host OS, install VMware server (Runs as a service unlike Workstation) and then install Vail as the guest on a VM. This will solve your problems. I have had this setup working in the past with WHS Ver1.

    Since you have 3 Drives of various sizes, I would recommend creating 3 vmdk's (Virtual Harddrives), 1 on each Drive for the Vail VM, that way Vail can duplicate Data if need be. In my case, I required this since my important photos were stored on my Virtualized WHS. Anyone that has a MOBO (Motherboard) that supports RAID configurations you could get creative and make your WHS even more fail safe, but could be harder to revive should yor MOBO fail.

    With this configuration, you can blow the minds of your friends by showing them that your Host PC (Windows 7) is being backed up on you Guest Server (Vail). If you lose a drive, vail should run just fine. Should you lose your entire Windows 7 system, well as long as you didn't have RAID configured (and in many cases if you did) just hook your Hard Drives up do a Hard drive to USB adapter, grab the vmdks on the Hard drives and you Vail installation has just crawled from the ashes to live yet another day… and with it, your host windows 7 system. :)

    Hope this helps! Again thanks for all the great articles!

    jkasal

    • Jonathan

      For what it's worth, one of your problems may be that your processor (the Athlon 4400+) doesn't support AMD's virtual technology. Maybe this is part of the problem?

      Thanks for all the hard work!

    • Jody

      Quote from page 1 of the article
      "When working with Virtual Machines, the host will be Vail. Using Windows 7 as the host is just not an option (to me). While there are a lot of technical reasons, i.e. Drive Extender, the easiest way to put it is one installs a software feature (Windows 7 MC) on top of the OS, not an OS on top of the software feature.
      These restrictions may seem arbitrary to some. Regarding the first point, if you are a VM guru and want to do all this inside a bare-metal VM, go for it. I am not a VM guru, and have no plans to be a VM guru. Remember, this is supposed to be a *Home* Server."

  • http://twitter.com/tmservo @tmservo

    You've made this way to difficult. Right idea, but WAY too difficult. So, let me give you the solution. Your solution of a VM is a decent one. But you go the wrong direction. Your idea of USB tuners is the wrong one. Solution: use a Network tuner. IE, SiliconDust HD HomeRun. Install it within MC in a VM. Tested it in Virtualbox here. Works. Then, set up the VM for a small drive size, and load the Homeserver connect software, tell it to archive the TV off to the HomeServer. It will do so immediately constantly. It's then visible to every other Win7 MCE connected remotely.

    Problem solved. You're just making it too difficult ;)

    • jkasal

      Thats a great idea too.

      The downside is the SiliconDust HD is a much more expensive solution thought. Newegg sells it for $150 vs $30-$50 for a USB solution.

      Also, Running Windows 7 as the Guest OS, not only could you stream to other Win 7 MCE systems but you can also directly connect to a TV (Weather it be DVI, VGA, HDMI) and thus saving both power and Money by running a fully featured WIN7 MCE build and your home server.

      All the Features above are great, but if you have a silicone dust, and another Win7 MCE, you don't need the Windows 7 Sitting on the same hardware as vail. Directly connect the other Win 7 MCE tot the Dust and record to Vail.

      • http://twitter.com/tmservo @tmservo

        No, that doesn't work. Because the guest OS doesn't have true video acceleration, you can't really use it to go to a TV.. remotes won't work (USB support is wonky) and that's it.

        What you are really getting is the ability to shut your living room MCE down while your WHS stays on and does your time scheduled recording.

        • jkasal

          You are correct, I meant to say Host OS not Guest OS. Running Windows 7 as the Host with Vail as the guest you could hook up your WIN 7 Build to the TV via HDM, etc..

          Shutting down the MCE is really a moot point if it's virtualized. With VMware Server managing the VM's resources it shouldn't take much more power when idle as when it's off.

    • Grimm

      Or you could save money and DVBlink the USB tuner on the Vail server, then access and record it from the VM's WMC. Vail backs up from the VM, shares your recorded TV over the network, and as an added bonus you also get a live feed from the tuner to all other machines on the network.

      So: Vail>DVBlink>VM>WMC>Vail
      /
      Other computers

  • Sidthecat

    how would this function with PCI tuners, I have an Old sony VGX XL100 I use for my Homeserver which has two Avermedia cards installed as standard…

  • Mike

    Jim, this is getting painful. Can`t you just test what works and publish that? Thats what everyone else does.

  • Jody

    He is sharing the learning curve, which will help a lot of people, as they wont have to try that bit, as it has already been tried, and documented.

    just skip to the last page, and see if it worked, if not, then you dont have to read it.

    • Dave

      Just to add to the mix. I have also been experimenting and presently have Win7 as host OS and Vail as guest OS running in a virtual machine utilising Virtual Box. I am able to play dvd's, music and slide shows quite happily from the virtualised Vail through the media centre on the host Win 7. The TV card in the win 7 also works quite normally.
      Just having problems coming to grips mentally, with backing up the host OS to the virtual OS. Doesn't seem right but appears to work. Just doesn't seem right :) .
      One advantage of Virtualbox over vmware is that it has experimental 3d and 2d graphics acceleration.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jim_Clark Jim_Clark

    Lots of great discussion and comments! Please remember that we are working with a Beta OS at this time. Based upon the time between the first public Windows 7 Beta and it's RTM, I would not expect a Vail RTM for awhile yet. Which means I am not in a panic mode to find a Vail solution. While this won't speed up the overall process, I will try to combine a few trials into a single post.

    Now, if all this gives users ideas for WHS v1, that could be a plus. Right? :)

  • http://twitter.com/tmservo @tmservo

    To those that suggest using Win7 as the host OS: While this works, it defeats the entire point of a home server all together. Because a VM can't manage drive extender, and because disc access within a VM is atrociously slow as compared to a real OS.. more then that, if you use the backup functions of Home Server, the VM's single VMDK/VHD/VDI will explode in size, and since you're on an OS without DE, and you may use raid or what ever, you'll have a single, hundreds of gigabites VM file that if anything happens, you instantly lose everything. That's called monumental dataloss waiting to happen.

    If you run Virtualbox on top of WHS (I'm doing exactly this on WHS1) you can give the entire thing a 50GB Space. Large, but not much larger then say, a BD ISO. Set up your TV archive function to send everything to the WHS it's hosted on.

    This means that your other MCE PC's get good network flow with few stumbles, and your risk of data loss is significantly lowered.

    The idea is something that works, can be reproduced, and is stable. Putting WHS on top of a Win7 install is asking for trouble.

    • jkasal

      Please read my original post above. Multiple VMDKs on multiple disk prevents data loss. Drive extender will work with multiple VMDKs.

      Also, VMDKs (VMwares virtual Hard Drive technology) are only as fast a the disk they are on. You may have disk contention that is causing heavy disk usage.

    • Nom

      “To those that suggest using Win7 as the host OS: While this works, it defeats the entire point of a home server all together. Because a VM can’t manage drive extender, and because disc access within a VM is atrociously slow as compared to a real OS.. more then that, if you use the backup functions of Home Server, the VM’s single VMDK/VHD/VDI will explode in size, and since you’re on an OS without DE, and you may use raid or what ever, you’ll have a single, hundreds of gigabites VM file that if anything happens, you instantly lose everything. That’s called monumental dataloss waiting to happen.”

      This is just not true.
      VMs are capable of using *physical* drives on the Host system – there’s absolutely nothing stopping you plugging 4 drives into your host, allocating them to the WHS VM, and then have WHS use it’s drive-extender technology as normal. What’s more, if you’re using physical drives, then the VM isn’t in a “single VMDK/VHD/VDI” – there’s no more potential for data-loss than there is in a physical system !
      Finally, disc access within a VM using physical drives is barely any slower than a physical system.

  • guest

    Perhaps the used TV Tuner hardware / driver is the issue here. Although I have not a tried Vial as host with Win7 as Guest, I did succesfully tried Win7 as Host and Guest, with a working USB AnySee TV Tuner inside virtualised Win7. Only the HD channels where choppy when Viewing (did not yet try to record and playback on Host).

  • Wilkes

    Not specifically related to the USB tuner problem, but on your Win7 MC virtual machine in Virtualbox (assuming you used the same way to access media on the WHS from MC). It appears from one of your screen shots that you're accessing your media folders through network shares (\VAIL-SERVERVideos in your example). It seems like you could set your media folders on WHS as shared folders in Virtualbox (Settings – Shared Folders) and then set MC to include these folders directly. If this can be done it seems the advantages would be that you would no longer use network bandwidth for media folder access from your Win7 MC VM and you could use those folders directly from the VM and not have to go through intermediate media folders on the VM. You could also then remove those folders from the WHS backup of the VM. Hope this makes sense.

  • Tommy

    Hmmmmmm MediaPortal is the way to go! Install TV Server directly on WHS server. The install complains a bit but works like a treat! Then install iPimp and then you can watch and control the whole thing from your phone….

  • merdzd

    Hi Jim.
    The new version of Vmware 7.1 relesed.
    OpenGL 2.1 Support for Windows 7 and Windows Vista Guests — Improves the ability to run graphics-based applications in virtual machines.

    Direct Launch — Drag guest applications from the Unity start menu directly onto the host desktop. Double-click the shortcut to open the guest application. The shortcut remains on the desktop after you exit Unity and close VMware Workstation
    http://www.vmware.com/support/ws71/doc/releasenot…

    • merdzd

      I would like to try but was not present USB TV tuner et