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Transform Windows Home Server Vail Into a Media Center, Part 1

By on May 18, 2010 in News, Software, TV, Video, WHS v2, windows 7, Windows Home Server, Windows Media Center

Preface

They say there are five stages of loss.

  1. Denial. No, Microsoft wouldn’t cripple WHS v2!
  2. Anger. No! Microsoft just shafted us. Again!
  3. Bargaining. Bargain with Microsoft? What planet are you from?
  4. Depression. Oh, gosh! Time to turn to the Dark Side: Linux!
  5. Acceptance. Acceptance? No way! Time to forge a new path.

I’ve had a bit of time think about how to address this, how shall I say, “loss of the most important/requested feature to be incorporated in Vail”. Without much hope of a resolution. However, we now have the public Vail Beta. While there are still some rough edges, I have found it to be actually quite usable and it is at a stage where we can make it sing our song(s). For the most part.

Which songs do I want Vail to sing? That is an easy question to answer. I want to have 1 machine provide 3 basic functions:

  • back up my client machines
  • be a data server for my media
  • record TV (and serve it)

WHS v1 and v2 (Vail) can do the first 2. Neither WHS v1 or v2 (Vail) can do the last one. At least not Out Of the Box. As far as the above list is concerned, I am sure that other bullets could be added. But the TV recording function is the biggie IMHO, in reducing the number of machines that have to be on 24/7.

With a great idea in my mind, I had the thought that this article would be a one-part “This is how I got Media Center to work on Vail!” post. During my original endeavors to this end, I found it in the best interests of the reader to not only look at how to get Windows Media Center and Vail to coexist, but to also take a look at the alternatives. Just in case MC in Vail proved to be a dead end…

Obviously, I would love to be able to have WHS and WMC on the same box, but there are alternatives also. Basically, I do not wish to restrict my options.

What are the alternatives to Windows Media Center?

  • DVBLink
  • GB-PVR
  • Sage TV
  • Beyond TV
  • MediaPortal
  • Others? Let me know and I will add them to the list!

I won’t pretend to be an expert at using any of these alternatives, because I am not. I am looking for a solution as easy as Windows Media Center, of which hopefully WMC will be one. If not WMC, I am looking for a solution that just about anyone can install and use with a similar user experience (or better) to WMC. This is a journey of discovery for me, also, as I do not have a clue what may work or what may not work. Vail is a brand new platform, after all!

However, before exploring various alternatives in future parts of this series, let’s first take a look at Vail and Windows Media Center. So, on to

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About Jim Clark

Hello. I’m from the heartland of the U.S. Lots of corn and beans, although Iowa is a lot more than just farmland. It also has a few computer enthusiasts (no, not me!). I’ve been around PCs since I got my 1st PC XT aloooong time ago. WGS is one of the first sites I found centered around WHS. And the best. Every once in awhile, I do get away from the KB and enjoy time with and my wife and our 4 kids. And I do have a day job.
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  • James

    Ive been running sageTV on my WHS for a couple of years now. I have 4 terrestrial and 2 satellite tuners all running together, the only hard part of installation is getting the EPG to work in the UK.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jim_Clark Jim_Clark

      Sage is on my list!

  • kevin

    Please add TVersity runs great on WHS

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jim_Clark Jim_Clark

      Will do!

  • Phillip Williams

    Have you tried using virtualbox? That does usb passthrough and is also free.

    I think where you might run into problems is with the element of usb passthough in the sense that any time I have tried this, it always runs slow. If there is some way you can increase the speed then I think thats where you need to look.

    Cheers

    Phill

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jim_Clark Jim_Clark

      I will take a look at it.

  • sisniper

    Guys

    Remember those in ther UK/EU have to download the media pack to install both Media Centre and player on Windows 7 N, has someone tried installing that on Vail?

    that would be so cool !

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jim_Clark Jim_Clark

      Might be cool, but I would think that MS would be checking the OS you are trying to install that on = no workie!

  • Mark

    Have you never tried Virtual pc form Microsoft itself? the version inside Win7 allows pass through of usb devies (at least webcams, keyboard speakers etc). On my WHS I have virtual server running a virtual WHS, currently however it is past its trail period due date, but I thought that I could also use usb devices in the environment… Both are free and work great with microsoft products;-)

    • LRJ

      I agree… If you are only running one or two VMs, why not install Virtual PC or Virtual Server, both support USB pass-through.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jim_Clark Jim_Clark

        First I ever heard that Virtual PC supports USB passthru. I will look at.

        • WHS

          Also look at VirtualBox (free) which has much better performance than VMWare and USB passthrough.

    • Robert

      Won't work as the Viirtual PC capability in Windows 7 only supports 32 bit OSs

    • Robert

      the Virtual PC in Windows 7 only supports 32 bit OSs

  • DanB

    Very, very interested to see how you get on here. How do you propose to manage recordings? How about using something like Recording Broker, and then having a 'tunerless' MCE attached to the screen?

    DVBLink is a promising first step, but this only puts the tuners in the server. If you are using it through an MCE client, then the client has to be on to record the programme, and then it gets archived back to the server, which is all a bit coach-before-horses…

    It doesn't seem that it's THAT big a step to managing guides and recording lists on the clients, but actually DO the recording and storage on the WHS, now that Vail is R2-based?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jim_Clark Jim_Clark

      If I cannot get the tuner(s) to work in a VM on Vail, then I would have to abandon WMC on a Vail machine and use an alternative.

  • StanF

    Hmmm…this seems like a perfect application for a networked HD Homerun tuner…

    • http://thedigitalmediazone.com Josh Pollard

      I was thinking the same thing. This might work perfectly with an HD HomeRun. My question is will the virtualized video stuff handle live tv?

      Great write up Jim!

      • CokeFrog22

        I think you did it backwards. Install Windows 7 bare metal, then install WHS in the VM. Add separate drives to the home server VM for storage.

        And in this config you don’t have to worry about passing USB ports through to a VM. You can even use an internal tuner in this scenario.

        • Robert

          If you are suggesting using Virtual PC in Windows 7, that won't work as Virtual PC only supports 32 bit OSs

      • Jonathan

        Great write up, too bad it didn't work out!

        I think VMware Workstation is definitely the way to go. In my experience, it is not only quite robust, but offers class-leading features. They had usb passthrough support before anyone else, and are currently making huge strides on guest-OS graphics acceleration. Both of these are critical for your project. Your 30 day trial should be fine to see if it will work for this purpose.

        I have VMware running at home, and have a HD Homerun. I'll see if I can find some time to install a virtual copy of Win7 and try it out.

        • Jonathan

          Also, make SURE you install "VMware tools" in the guest-OS. I didn't see this in your screenshots, so I just wanted to make sure you are aware. It's a collection of drivers for the guest-OS that makes everything work faster and better.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jim_Clark Jim_Clark

            Yep, it is there.

    • Jim_Clark

      I am looking mostly at trialware software. I already spent $'s on tuner and I really do not plan on spending a $1000 to see what may or may not work. Now if HD Homerun would loan me a box for a while… :)

  • guest

    I managed to get Windows 7 Media Center working on VMWare Workstation 7 (host is Windows 7) with an Anysee 30TC-Plus. Only for HD channels current hardware is not fast enough (AMD 5050E).

    • guest

      Correction…i did this trial setup on my desktop with a Core i7 860 overclocked to 3.8Ghz. I have not a spare machine to try Vail. I will try the same with VM Server 2 on WHS.

  • CappuHB

    Hi,
    try to use the DVBViewer Recording Service from DVBViewer (http://www.dvbviewer.com)

    I'm running this on my Acer H430 without any problems with 2 DVB-T USB sticks without any performance problems. Keep in mind that this is an Atom 230.

    Programming is possible via web-interface from all your clients.

  • http://www.creativehand.co.uk jody

    Why not try it the other way around, ie: Win 7 as the OS with Vail as the VM and HDD passthrough ?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Jim_Clark Jim_Clark

      Possible, but not a preferred way. Running a server (especially WHS) on top of a workstation would not be advisable.

    • Robert

      Won't work as the Virtual PC capability in Windows 7 does not support 64 bit OS

      • Nelson

        But AFAIK, you can still run VMWare Server on Windows 7.

  • http://www.mcesoft.nl Danee

    This way of running Media Center works very well if you also use Recording Broker, this program will 'move' recording requests from one Media Center to another. There's only one drawback, the scheduled recording is no longer shown in the Media Center in which you scheduled the recording.
    http://babgvant.com/blogs/andyvt/archive/2007/02/…

  • Rob

    Did you considering using ESXi insted of Server edition of VMware – this might give you better control.

    • John

      ESXi doesn't allow usb passthrough.
      No baremetal virtual OS allows USB passthrough because of security concerns from the vendors.

      The previous recommendation about installing Windows 7 and then virtualizing the Vail install should work.
      I actually have this setup in my home lab, I didn't think anyone was interested but I'll get everything together and test and post results if you want?

  • Robert

    I am unclear what the relationship is between Vail, VMware and Windows 7. Normally I would expect VMware to be the host and Vail and Windows 7 as guest OSs.

    I currently have Server 2008 R2 with Hyper-V enabled running Vail and Windows 7 as guest OSs, so I am intrigued if I can make this arrangement achieve your goal.

    FYI, there is a free version of Microsoft's Hyper-V server (http://www.microsoft.com/hyper-v-server/en/us/default.aspx) that may provide the same functionality as VMware.

    • Nelson

      At least VMware ESX server includes a minimal base OS (I think based on Linux). That virtually makes VMware the "host". It will also cost you tons of money and you probably need a NAS (fiber channel, iSCSI…) to host the virtual machines. The free VMware Server product requires a host OS. You could mimic what ESX does and try to install a minimal version of Linux, install VMware on top, then your 2 virtual machines (3 operating systems to maintain). Or, you can let one of your machines (WHS, Media Center) be the host and let the other be virtual (2 operating systems to maintain).

  • BLKBX

    I’m inclined to agree with CokeFrog22. I have WHS running in a VM on W7 x64 host with a virtual disk as the VMs primary and physical disks for pool and both network & disk I/O performance are stellar when streaming 1080 content :)

    • guest

      Because of the Drive Extender technology it is wise to use Windows Home Server as the host os.

      Otherwise you have to make sure that adding virtual disks to Windows Home Server as storage, that the physical files are on seperate disks, when the virtual disks are on the same disk you essentially make the Drive Extender technology and Duplication of folders useless)!

    • CokeFrog22

      I can see doing this as follows:

      4 drives in the home server; let’s say they are all 1TB each.

      1st drive (boot): install Windows 7. Use the whole partition.

      Then install VMware workstation. install as a WHS as a VM. Give it 100GB. Not sure if the new version of WHS works like the old one: 20GB c:\ and the rest as d:\ (where the data is stored). Assuming it does, that leaves 80GB for the temp storage (WHS 2003 only uses this as temp space before moving data to other drives, if they exist; so the largest size file you can theoretically copy to your home server in this case is approx. an 80GB file).

      Then add the other three physical disks to the VM (partitioning them as RAW, so it’s not using VMFS, but true NTFS). that gives the WHS the space, the drive extender tech is there, and lets you use any kind of TV tuner you want – internal or external.

  • Scoob

    I would like go down the VMware route, but the full version is $189 – and then I have to buy a windows 7 license to go on top of that!!

    250 bucks for licenses to record TV on the WHS is way too expensive. Any virtualisation software has to be free.

  • joit

    You could install MediaPortal TVServer von Vail directly. No need for VM Ware, no need for Windows 7. http://forum.team-mediaportal.com/installation-co…

    • Scoob

      Does media portal support extenders / clients? I get the impression Jim is looking for a client / server setup and just have the WHS serve.

  • Mike

    It will be interesting to see if VMware Workstation gives you a different result – I have more confidence in that product than VMware Server.

  • Jonny C

    Could you try this with Microsoft Hyper V? Both WHS and Win 7 would sit at the same "level" on the machine so I guess (never used it so don't know) they should be able to access the hardware better.

    Having said that, I thought it used to be free but from what I can tell you have to pay for it now :o ( I guess if you have an MSDN licence then you can get it to try?

  • Scoob

    Jim, I`d like to recommend you try Sun`s virtual box
    http://www.virtualbox.org/

    This solution is FREE, so will be a much better platform for normal human beings who are on a budget!

  • Ivan

    Considering 7MC needs access to hardware (tuner, HD acceleration from GPU, remote control… ) I would have done the opposite: install 7 as the host then WHS as a guest. I recommand Virtual box that can hide the guest operating system away (it is still accessible through remote desktop). I'm sure that would work perfectly !

  • jzedward

    I'm working on WHS vail on Hyper-V and planning Win7 with an HD HomeRun dual network tuner, so no need for USB device connection. Only worry is can I get Win7 working without a native audio device

  • toy4x4

    Another issue with Hyper-V, ESXi and Xenserver is they do not provide video support for Aero and WMC. I could not get it to work at all under any of these three. I had to run VMWare Workstation to get it to work. I assume Server would work too but I didn't try it.

    This is disappointing that it is not native. I may try Vail and see if I can install the WMC package from the EU version of Windows 7. But I doubt this even comes close to working..

  • blpearce

    Why can't you install streaming media role for Server 2008 R2? This would not require the install of Win7.

  • BrentSJ

    I'm a little late to this party, but you could try this with HDHomeRun. The tuner sits on your network, so USB won't be an issue.

  • Mike

    Use virtual box if your cpu support hardware virtualization.

  • Jon

    Jim… kind of to piggy back off BrentSJ's comment. Do you think that this would work with the HDHomeRun Prime that is about to come out since it is connected through the network?

    Jon